Is info conveyed by time more important than the absolute place?
Andy Roth
· 1 year ago
This is starting to sound like physics. So what we are talking about is current position (40), direction (+), distance (4), and speed (1.25 spots per day). You are right, that as we move along this continuum, the information gets more meaningful. Then the question becomes, beyond all these, what's the next type of info we could benefit from.
Alex Iskold
· 1 year ago
Here is a simple one - make a decision for me, just tell me - watch this movie. And if you are right all the time, then I love ya. But you know how recommendation engines pan out...
Alex Iskold
· 1 year ago
Hey Fraser,
This is an awesome post! The relative number is certainly important - velocity. But you can't dismiss the absolute number. The question needs to be asked in the context of what you are trying to figure out? More useful to who?
What is interesting is that trend information is much more sophisticated than a lot of people would care about, cause it is a derivative. In your example, the whole card game was based on that and so it made sense, but for example in Netflix case, absolute place is simple info and the ones that you are mentioning are quite complex.
Note that in case of music charts for the example, there is that time information you are mentioning, but the trick is that Top of the chart - so absolute is fixed.
To me this is the key - there is only 1 metric that people can focus on, not many and sometimes it is relative, sometimes it is absolute.
Fraser
· 1 year ago
"There is only 1 metric that people can focus on, not many" --- rings very true.
In the examples sited above it seems that context is grounded by the absolute value and the interesting piece of information is the simplified presentation of the derivative.
I'm a new Netflix user but the absolutiness (if I may) of the top 100 is of no interest. Look at the top 10. Not interesting. What is interesting are the big jumps near the bottom of the list.
adamposey
· 1 year ago
As an interesting experiment, I'd like to see what happens if we strip away the absolutes and leave only the trends. Hiding the hard data but saying "This is clearly becoming more (or less) popular than it's competitors".
How would the mechanics of marketing music change if top 10 lists were to be replaced with the "Top 10 movers" or "fastest risers". Would this change how people view the data? I'd like to say that I think it would change how people look for the data. I think they would start at the bottom of the list and work their way up. Rather than starting at the top hits and working their way down. People could feel like they helped 'discover' music by pushing it to the top.
To directly relate it to your product. What would happen if I hovered over a smartlink and instead of seeing an emphasized hard number about it's popularity I simply saw that the link was becoming increasingly popular. What If instead of seeing that no one had clicked the link, I was made to feel that I could be a trend-setter by getting in on that valuable information early (because it was on it's way up).
There's certainly a lot to think about, here.
Fraser
· 1 year ago
In the case of top 10 "fastest risers" (sounds very Casey Casem-ish!) wouldn't they still want to start at the top of the list? You'd assume the fastest risers would be the relatively obscure items that are gaining incredible moment. On an absolute sense MGMT never became "top" but at the start of this year they would have been near the top of the momentum list.
Good question about relating this back to our product. If you could only see one piece of information - absolute or momentum - what would be most valuable?
Alex Iskold
· 1 year ago
A momentum is the signal to buy or sell, but it is not an indicator of overall quality. Absolute standing is better at that.
adamposey
· 1 year ago
I have to disagree, Alex. Actually, when it comes to smartlinks I don't think either is valuable enough. The absolute standing shows popularity, but as any good hard look at the iTunes top 10 list will tell you, popularity and quality do not necessarily go hand in hand.
However, I think that showing 'momentum' in a way that provokes interaction with the smartlink would let me find the quality in it.
Steffan Antonas
· 1 year ago
@Alex + Adam - I agree with Adam, but only in the case that the item or object in question is new or novel. A high upward velocity of a new item that is not yet popular can signal us towards a new trend, one that might "tip" and become massively popular. However, if we're talking about vetting the quality of an item, then Alex is right, overall popularity is the best metric. What do you guys think? I believe that these are subtle, but important distinctions.
Steffan Antonas
· 1 year ago
@Adam - I completely agree that showing momentum in a way that provokes interaction with the smartlink would point people towards quality. I would use it that way too. Ultimately people want to be able to decide for themselves anyway, so maybe velocity is the most important.
adamposey
· 1 year ago
I don't think so Fraser. Mostly because music, etc. is becoming so fragmented into countless niches that you'd probably have greater success being seen as 'obscure', 'on the edge', etc. People would feel like they've discovered something special before anyone else, and would probably become fervent fans for it (the kind that do things like spend $350 on tickets to your shows).
Fraser
· 1 year ago
We're in agreement. I just think that for the "fastest risers" chart the obscure artists that are starting to become popular would be at the top.
Moving from obscurity to less-than-obscure results in >> momentum.
Steffan Antonas
· 1 year ago
@Fraser + Adam - Definitely. With how much we get hammered with "most popular/ Top 100 etc stats" isn't fastest risers and discovering something new way more interesting?
Marc
· 1 year ago
One piece isnt enough, however, clevery presentation of both is key. Within the context of what this group can relate to think of "the % of page views from mac OS users is small". Well, thats relative. 1% of 1 million is something to take into consideration, but 1% of 1000 isnt worth the effort.
So, can I come to conclusions with just one piece of information? No. But, there has been a ton of research on the various ways to graphically present data to users so that they still determine value while the application remain intuitive and simple.
Steffan Antonas
· 1 year ago
Fraser,
I'm so glad you posted this. It's a perfect way to illustrate what I was trying to suggest in a concrete, tangible way. I was huge into trading cards when I was 10-12 and this post brought back some great memories of huddling around Beckett with my friends in the school yard trying to figure out how our collection's relative value was fluctuating. That little arrow really was everything.
All Comments
As an example, is there value in this? I think so:
Constant Gardener (37, even, 12 weeks)
Knocked Up (40, +4, 6 days)
Is info conveyed by time more important than the absolute place?
This is an awesome post! The relative number is certainly important - velocity. But you can't dismiss the absolute number. The question needs to be asked in the context of what you are trying to figure out? More useful to who?
What is interesting is that trend information is much more sophisticated than a lot of people would care about, cause it is a derivative. In your example, the whole card game was based on that and so it made sense, but for example in Netflix case, absolute place is simple info and the ones that you are mentioning are quite complex.
Note that in case of music charts for the example, there is that time information you are mentioning, but the trick is that Top of the chart - so absolute is fixed.
To me this is the key - there is only 1 metric that people can focus on, not many and sometimes it is relative, sometimes it is absolute.
In the examples sited above it seems that context is grounded by the absolute value and the interesting piece of information is the simplified presentation of the derivative.
I'm a new Netflix user but the absolutiness (if I may) of the top 100 is of no interest. Look at the top 10. Not interesting. What is interesting are the big jumps near the bottom of the list.
How would the mechanics of marketing music change if top 10 lists were to be replaced with the "Top 10 movers" or "fastest risers". Would this change how people view the data? I'd like to say that I think it would change how people look for the data. I think they would start at the bottom of the list and work their way up. Rather than starting at the top hits and working their way down. People could feel like they helped 'discover' music by pushing it to the top.
To directly relate it to your product. What would happen if I hovered over a smartlink and instead of seeing an emphasized hard number about it's popularity I simply saw that the link was becoming increasingly popular. What If instead of seeing that no one had clicked the link, I was made to feel that I could be a trend-setter by getting in on that valuable information early (because it was on it's way up).
There's certainly a lot to think about, here.
Good question about relating this back to our product. If you could only see one piece of information - absolute or momentum - what would be most valuable?
However, I think that showing 'momentum' in a way that provokes interaction with the smartlink would let me find the quality in it.
Moving from obscurity to less-than-obscure results in >> momentum.
So, can I come to conclusions with just one piece of information? No. But, there has been a ton of research on the various ways to graphically present data to users so that they still determine value while the application remain intuitive and simple.
I'm so glad you posted this. It's a perfect way to illustrate what I was trying to suggest in a concrete, tangible way. I was huge into trading cards when I was 10-12 and this post brought back some great memories of huddling around Beckett with my friends in the school yard trying to figure out how our collection's relative value was fluctuating. That little arrow really was everything.